Pre-episode Intro Liz: It grew my confidence level, and showed me that, "You know what? I do have what it takes to do this, if this is something that I decide to do." Chris: This is the Penny Forward podcast, a show about blind people building bright futures one penny at a time. I'm Chris Peterson, .... MOe: I'm MOe Carpenter, ... Chris: And our theme this month is "employment." And to talk about employment with us today is our very own Liz Bottner, who has been employed for most of her adult life, both in the for profit and the government sectors, and she's going to tell us all about her employment history, and what she believes is key to being successfully employed as a blind person. Liz, thanks for being here today. Liz: Hello. Thank you for having me. Chris: Tell us about yourself, and your blindness if you want to start off. Liz: When I was first born, I did have sight. I don't remember it, though, because when I was a few months old, my retinas completely detached, and my mom has actually let me know that they were able to tell that because they used to take pictures of us through the NICU window, because when my sisters and I were born, uh, we were rushed to the NICU because we were very, very sick, and actually not expected to live past the first twenty-four hours. I especially, uh, my mom was told that. She was told, "You may actually not want to see your daughter, because she may not make it." And my mom was having none of that. And she said, "I am going to see my daughter' and that is what's going to happen." Needless to say, I proved the doctors wrong then, and after that as well, with what their projections of what I couldn't do. My childhood was no different than any other childhood. I was not treated any differently just because of my blindness. My mom was very intent on the fact that we would do whatever we wanted to do as children. She gave us the same experiences in terms of figuring out how to safely let us play. And, and that, that looked different, because when I was learning how to walk, for instance, I needed, I couldn't just watch anyone do it, because I didn't have sight. And so, she would put balloons filled with, I think it was rice or something. Above, and so I would have to get up and hit the balloons to have something to, that made noise as an enticement for me to, to get up and move around. Uh, but I, in addition to my mom, I had, uh, a village who helped raise my sisters and I. Uh, those, the main two people of that village being my grandmother and my great aunt, who were extremely instrumental in shaping me to be who I am today. Uh, and I just, my childhood was no different than, ... I didn't know any different. I didn't know that I was blind, I don't actually know when I knew that for a fact, when I consciously thought, and knew that that was a thing. Uh, my earliest memories did not have that in it. I, I climbed trees. I went outside, and we had a, a play set that was built for us out back in the house that I grew up in, for the first part, well, the first few years of my life. Um, and we went up and, into the playhouse, and it had two different, two different levels, and it had a ladder, so you had to climb up the ladder and, and get into the top of the playhouse, and it had a swing, and so I, I played in mud. When I was about two. Uh, so, and um, I don't know. It was just whatever my mom could do to bring the world to us as, as, as children growing up with, with vision loss, she absolutely, two hundred fifty percent did. And I am eternally grateful for that. And the fact that my aunt and grandmother also did that. MOe: So, growing up, did you have any goals, or aspirations, of what you wanted to be later in life? Liz: As a lot of children most likely I would think do, I had goals that kept changing. When I was growing up, and as I learned that technology was super, super helpful, that, I do think actually is the definitive point where I realized, "I need to make this some part of my professional career." I know, from my mom telling me, that when I was younger, I told her that I definitely knew that I wanted to get a guide dog. Uh, which, I am a, primarily a, a guide dog user today. So, that had some baring on that I guess. Uh, my mom also has said to me that at some point, I mentioned that I wanted to work in a library, which, (Chuckle.) Again, younger me foreshadowing things, I suppose, uh, but I just, I knew that I, there was no doubt in my mind that I would be successful no matter what I did, but the summer job that I can remember having that really kind of launched this idea of, "I can actually do this" in terms of teaching technology was, one or two weeks before the job was actually supposed to start, and I was supposed to teach this, this girl in middle school the Braille Lite, which I did not have one of my own, but I was given the unit that my student would have, and a manual, that was in hard copy braille, and told, "Go home, learn this, come back in one or two weeks," again, I forget whether, which it was, "and teach your student. And you'll meet them and start teaching them." I'm like, "Uh, wow. They're actually trusting me to do this. This is awesome." And I went home, learned the technology, came back, and I successfully taught the student, and she was practicing her reading with it, and it was just the most beautiful thing. That I was involved in. I think that was my favorite job that I had over the summer. It was, and it grew my confidence level, and showed me that, "You know what? I do have what it takes to do this if this is something that I decide to do." Chris: Not all of us are ... lucky, I think that's probably a good word, enough to be growing up around other blind or visually impaired children. And you grew up with two sisters, who also have different degrees of vision loss. What was that like, and how did that shape your ideas about blindness and vision loss growing up? Liz: I prefer the word "fortunate," uh, myself, but luck works too I, "lucky" works too, I suppose. Uh, growing up with two siblings, not only siblings, right, but siblings who also had vision loss, although, uh, one of the three of us did have a fair amount of vision, and with correction, is able to drive and does have, I don't know that it's 20/20, but, vision enough that, that she can drive, legally, so, we’ll go with that. But my one sister did have a less amount of vision, and so I gravitated more towards my, towards her, I do not believe it was just because of, and actually, I know for a fact. That it was not just because she had, um, she could relate more on the, the level of vision loss. Just she and I, we ... we jelled more. We, and still do today. She and I have a closer relationship than, any of the pairings of the others of us if that makes sense. But it was, especially with my, with that particular sister, it was extremely helpful to grow up with her. I didn't feel like I was the only sibling dealing with vision loss. And I, we actually helped each other, I feel, a great deal. Uh, we would go to this camp every summer. That, that my, that was a local camp to where I was living, and we would just have fun. And it was a break from school. And we could do arts and crafts. And granted, some of the crafts that we did were, you know, not the greatest things ever, and probably not something that I would have picked to do, but we, we did other crafts that were helpful. I, actually I think the first year I went to this camp, which was when I was five, which that was also a brave thing, uh, and, and kudos to my mom for seeing what a possible positive experience that could be for me, and being comfortable with sending me away to a day camp for, for children who are, are blind or who have low vision, uh, but I made a napkin holder at that camp. It was a wooden napkin holder, I remember that specifically, uh, and I, I also remember that because it still exists. And I believe my mom still has it. Uh, it is kind of breaking, uh, because it's been a while since I made it, but it, it does still exist, so that, but that memory is something that, it reminds me when I, when I see it, of that camp. And when my sister joined me at that camp the second year I went, uh, and we just, we had that shared experience. And we have that shared experience, and those shared memories. We did not, we were mainstreamed in school. Uh, in public school. We did not go to a school for the blind. Uh, that was something that was, uh, on the table in terms of, people wanted that to be something that was considered for me, but my mom decided, "No, that's not really something that needs to happen." And so, I was mainstreamed, and I am actually grateful for that. No disrespect at all meant to schools for the blind, I just, I ... do not believe that I would have gotten the academic education that I was able to get in public school, and I do think my mom possibly realized that at the time, and again, pushed me to, uh, be able to, to be mainstreamed. Uh, which there were challenges with that as well, but that maybe there wouldn't have been in a, a school for the blind setting, so, to answer the question, uh, so yes, growing up with my, my, uh, with siblings who did have vision loss was extremely helpful in terms of an experience. Um, and that, that camp experience in particular, just the, having that experience was super super helpful for us, because we were able to, to meet people, and people our own age, and even older. Who were blind, or who had low vision, and it was a very helpful experience for us to just have role models in that way. MOe: Can you describe for us your job journey until today? Liz: My job journey has been one of many lessons. Uh, successful experiences, frustrating experiences, but overall, it has been a journey that has led me to some genuinely amazing people, and I really think that it has shaped who I am. In even some of the frustrating experiences. So, I graduated high school and went on to under grad. I spent my first two years of undergraduate degree in upstate New York, at Ithaca College, and majored in both computer science, and added a major after that, as well, pretty shortly in the first part of my freshman year at Ithaca, in, uh, philosophy and religion. That was a joint major at the time, and I have always been one who has been curious about anything and everything, I truly mean that. And I, to this day, I am curious about anything and everything. Just learning what things are, why they are, how they are, I just, it's, it's a lifelong aspiration of mine to learn. So that was the first part of under grad, and then, uh, while that was an amazing experience, it was also amazingly expensive, and so to save money, I transferred back to my home state, uh, to, and went to the university there, and had, unfortunately, a not so good experience with the computer science professors. They did not have a philosophy and religion major, and actually, one thing I will mention about that double major, is one of my favorite classes at Ithaca in taking that major was a philosophy of film class, and so that was, it was fun to watch films and talk about different aspects of them as related to philosophy. That is literally what we did. So, with, uh, the transfer to a bigger school, I, unfortunately, ended up dropping the computer science major, but I knew I needed to graduate, and so I ended up with a philosophy major and a religious studies minor. And so that's what I did for under grad. I knew I wanted to go to grad school eventually. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. On an E-mail list, I saw a posting for a graduate school program at Northern Illinois University, and there was grant money involved. Which was also awesome to me, who I, in that I didn't want to pay for it. I'm like, "Oh. Grant money? Cool. Uh, halfway across the country? I don't know, but, but grant money. Cool." In grad school, I did an internship with the Veterans Administration. I then left that internship, I worked for about a year in Atlanta Georgia at a nonprofit agency teaching assistive technology, so I was really grateful that I was able to tea to have a job, right out of grad school, teaching technology. That was my true wanting to get into that field in the first place. Georgia, unfortunately, was in a not so great state financially when almost a year had, had, come up in my being in Atlanta, and I was, honestly, laid off. I had a three-day notice, and they said, uh, I came in on a Monday, and they said, "Uh, yeah. On Wednesday, that will be your last day." And that was extremely devastating to me. Because I hadn't done anything, or not done anything, and they're telling me I don't have a job. Right? That's, I mean, what the heck, really? It was, it was vulnerable at the time. Because it was hard to, kind of digest that. And I didn't have family with me at the time, I was the only one in Atlanta. Well, myself, and my guide dog at the time, which, he was a huge help in making that not be such a scary experience, uh, my previous guide Dalton. Uh, and so, I said "All right, well, you know what, okay, and, this is, frustrating right now, but it will get better." And it did, and I truly mean this when I say, I am glad that experience happened then because I no longer have a false sense of security that it will never happen to me again. I hope not, but if it were to ever happen again, I know, absolutely without a doubt, that I could survive. And would be fine. I was contacted by the Veteran's administration, and the center where I did my internship, and told of a position, and asked if I would be interested in taking that, and I said "Absolutely, yes I would," and so I worked for about eight years, eight or so years, eight and a half maybe, at that center. The last two or so years of that, I knew that I needed to figure out another, a next opportunity for me. And I wanted it to be in a, a place, in an area, geographically that was closer to family, and that offered me more in terms of access to transportation, and other things that I wanted to have easy access to. And in late 2021, after months of navigating a transfer from where I was at the time to Washington D.C, I was able to, uh, transfer. And then, since being in DC, that is actually where my job journey got a little crazy. Uh, in a, crazier, I guess I should say maybe, but I, in a year and a half, had three different jobs. Which, if you had said prior to me moving to Washington D.C, that that's what would happen, I would probably have looked at you like you had eight heads. Because that's just, I mean, ... what, that's, ... no one does that. Right? That's not something that people do. They go in a job, and hopefully, they stick it out, and grow there. And so, that was what I wanted, and had hoped I would be doing with my first job that I had in D.C. And, while it was a great job, and is a great job, it was not the right fit for me, and I kept kind of pushing it out of my, my mind, the feelings of, you know, "Maybe this isn't what you need to be doing right now." I thought maybe it was new job nervousness, or feelings of, "Can I do this?" But no, and, it wasn't, at all. And it kept coming back, this feeling of, "You need to be doing something different." So I, uh, did find a next opportunity for me, and that job was in digital accessibility compliance, so evaluating web sites, and documents, and applications, for compliance with the web content accessibility guidelines standards, and Section 508, uh, guidelines that are out, uh, that, that kind of dictate web accessibility for people with disabilities. I would periodically look at USA Jobs, just to see what was out there. It never hurts to look, and to see what's out there. And so, and to push yourself even further, if that's what you want to do. And for me it was. I knew that it would, at some point, if I could, be really nice to get back into federal service. Uh, I, I really enjoyed my time as a public servant, and wanted to do that again if that was in the cards, but if not, you know, I would weather that, as it were, and, you know, be okay with whatever the universe showed me was, you know, the possible path forward. Uh, it was, the deciding part comes in, whether, for me, whether I decide to, to go through with, to, kind of honor what it's showing me or not. And, uh, so I was looking on USA jobs, and saw a posting at the Library of Congress, within the National Library Service, for an assistive technology specialist. And, after about half a second of talking myself out of applying, because of not wanting to go through the possibility of being rejected and, and dealing with that hurt again, I absolutely applied, uh, and in fact, my supervisor, who I had at the, uh, medical, at the V.A. medical center in Washington DC, uh, when I told her about the job, she was extremely encouraging, so she had absolutely no hesitation in being a reference for me, and, uh, I transitioned in April of 2023, which, a bit of trivia, is the Library of Congress's birthday, uh, for any of you who may not know that. Uh, in April of 2023, April 24, 2023, I started as the assistive technology specialist, in the patron engagement section, within the National Library Service, at the Library of Congress. That is a mouthful, I am not going to say that five times fast. Uh, and I have just been honored and privileged every day to be in my current position. It is exactly where I need to be. Uh, I have every intention of staying in my position as long as they will have me. Uh, I, I am exactly where I need to be in terms of my skill set, and the level of increased responsibility I wanted for myself, and felt like I needed for myself in my next opportunity. Chris: That's an amazing journey, and there were a lot of steps involved in there. Can you tell us now, what your life is like day to day working for the National Library Service? Liz: Other than being an honor and a privilege, uh, it is full of, of different things. Different aspects. No day is the same from one day to the next. I, ... in my role as the Assistive Technology Specialist, I work with all of the teams who are testing the different products that we use, both internally and externally, uh, and I give feedback on what is and is not working. I am one of a team that does that, so I, I, my colleagues and I, we all will kind of collaborate, and, and make that happen, and we are a small team. We may be small, but we are mighty. We also appreciate patron feedback and are grateful when that happens. I am involved in different aspects of library wide projects. It's not just specific to the National Library Service. Sometimes the library will contact the section, the patron engagement section for input on, "We have a new exhibit that is going to be publicly available in the next few months. Could you come down to the building where this exhibit will be and give us feedback on what you think of our assessment of whether or not things are accessible?" And they have appreciated that. Another thing I will do, is I, uh, I help with writing documentation for products. And so, when we need to update user guides and things like that, I help with that. I, and, in addition to my team members. Uh, but we all kind of collaborate on all the things, I guess. As I said, no, no day is the same. I am involved in patron facing events that we might have. So when we have the monthly Many Faces of BARD events, and the quarterly Patron Corner events, I, uh, will go to those events, and sometimes help with answering questions, or just being a resource as needed. Um, I also interface with library, network library staff, so helping them learn the technology that, that patrons will then be using. Uh, so it's, it really is, and, and my, my job goals I feel like are changing and growing by, by the day as well. Which is amazing. I want that. I appreciate that. I don't like doing the same thing over and over again. And I'm probably forgetting things that I do, uh, but those are a few of the things that on a day to day. Chris: Well Liz, we're running out of time. Can you talk quickly about what your role is at Penny Forward, and if you're open to it, how people can get in touch with you if they have questions or would like to follow in your footsteps. Liz: Absolutely. Uh, my role at Penny Forward is, uh, usually I'm the co-host of this podcast, so this is kind of interesting to me. Uh, (Chuckle.) But I also, uh, am the current vice president, and so that is, that encompasses a lot of different things. Uh, for the sake of brevity, I will not go into them. Uh, and if anyone would like to reach out to me, you can do so by writing to the following E-mail address, that being, pennyforward@pennyforward.com Chris: Well again, Liz, thanks for being here. We really appreciate you sharing your story. Liz: Thank you for having me. I'm grateful to be able to share. Chris: The Penny Forward podcast is sponsored by the American Printing House, APH Connect Center, World services for the Blind, Thrivent, and Wells Fargo. And you two can be a sponsor of the Penny Forward podcast. Simply visit www.pennyforward.com/sponsorships to find out whether there is a sponsorship package available that meets your needs. The Penny Forward podcast is produced by Chris Peterson and Liz Bottner with help from MOe Carpenter. Audio editing and postproduction is provided by Brynn Lee, and transcription is provided by Anne Verduin. The music is composed and performed by Andre Louis. As an aside, all of those people are blind. Penny Forward is a nonprofit organization founded and led by blind people. Together, we help each other navigate the complicated landscape of personal finance through education, mentoring, and mutual support. To learn more about our self-paced online financial education courses, our weekly workshops, Tuesday Turning Pages Book Brunches, Monthly Member Meet Ups, and one to one financial counseling, and so much more, please visit our web site, pennyforward.com And consider becoming a Penny Forward member, which gives you access to our weekly workshops, discounted access to one to one financial counseling, and for a limited time while supplies last, and yes, that is a real thing, supplies will run out eventually, a free subscription to YNAB, which stands for "You Need a Budget," one of the most accessible budgeting apps we know of, available on IOS, Android, and through the web. Now, for all of us in the Penny Forward community, I'm Chris Peterson, ... MOe: I'm MOe Carpenter, ... Chris: And thanks for listening and have a fantastic week.