Pre-episode Intro

Jonathan: I now find advocacy really rewarding, and I realize that it's a long game, and sometimes advocacy's going to feel like you're banging your head against a brick wall, but every so often, the wall moves just a little bit. So, there is hope, and it can get better, and that's why I do believe, very strongly, in the work that the NFB does. Because it has turned many lives around, including mine.

Chris: This is the Penny Forward podcast, a show about blind people building bright futures one penny at a time. I'm Chris Peterson.

MOe: I'm MOe Carpenter.

Chris: And Liz Bottner isn't able to be here with us today, but she is with us here in spirit, and she also helped us set up this amazing interview that we're about to have. Today, our guest is Jonathan Mosen. Somebody who is an icon in the blindness field, and particularly in the blindness broadcasting and podcasting field. He's been doing this for over thirty years. I remember listening to him on "Main Menu" way back in the day, in the "Mosen Explosion," and of course, uh, he has been most recently doing the "Living Blindfully" podcast, which he just shut down, because he has accepted a new role in the technology field, with the National Federation of the Blind. So we're going to hear all about Jonathan's past, present, and future, and learn from him what he believes is key to being successful in our personal, professional, and financial lives, as people with blindness and blow vision. Jonathan, thank you for being here today.

Jonathan: Hey, Chris, and thank you for the very generous introduction. It's a pleasure to be here.

Chris: Could you start out by, uh, for those of you who maybe aren't familiar with you, telling us about yourself, your blindness, your connection to the blind community, ET cetera?

Jonathan: Sure. I'm born blind. I have a condition called "Nori's Disease," which includes a degenerative hearing impairment absolutely free, in addition to blindness, so maybe they'll give me the steak knives one day as well, you know, just like the infomercials. Um, I live in New Zealand, and I have four adult children now, and a gorgeous grandchild, who's eighteen months old, and I'm married to Bonnie. I have worked in radio for the early part of my career in commercial broadcasting, which is something I always wanted to do, and made a pretty significant effort to make that happen and take control of my own destiny. But I also felt a calling to get involved in advocacy. So I ran government relations for the blindness agency here for some years, and got some things, uh, done in that field. So I guess, the one thing about my life is that I've always been interested by so many things. And, apparently capable of doing them as well. So I've had a pretty wide and varied career, most recently, before coming to the National Federation of the Blind, as a Chief Executive. For five years, I was Chief executive of Work Bridge, which is New Zealand's largest employment agency for disabled people.

MOe: Taking a trip down memory lane, what do you think sparked your interest in the technology and advocacy field?

Jonathan: Well, they're quite different fields I guess, although they do intersect, when you find that mainstream companies perhaps have dropped the ball on making something accessible. In terms of technology, I just had a natural affinity for gadgets. And when I was going to school, we had technology just emerging, like the Versa Braille, which was a cassette-based braille display system from Telesensory Systems, and we had the Apple 2 E, and we connected all these things together, along with a Cremna modified Perkins, and I was able to make those things go. And when they broke, I was able to fix them. Which meant, that when it came to P.E. time, and all the other kids were going out there and running around the field, the teachers would actually get me into fix the computers, which I thought was so cool at the time, and I don't think it was so cool now, but I just naturally made these things work. And I seemed to have the ability to show other people how to make them work, and I can't explain why that is. It's just something I've always been able to do. And I guess the advocacy field, I have always felt a calling, a passion, to speak up for other people. I've got a pretty strong sense of justice, and if I believe that there is some sort of injustice going on, I want to try and put it right. And I've always believed that we have a lot more power than most of us realize we do, and I guess because I've been blessed with the ability to be pretty articulate, and put a case together, I've been able to persuade in my life, and make some pretty positive change. So, that also came pretty naturally to me. And I try, at the end of every day, I, I write in my journal every day. And at the end of the day, I try and answer the question, "What difference have I made for people today?" And if I can't answer the question, then I feel like I've wasted a day of my life.

Chris: I am one of these people who ran in the opposite direction from blindness. At the beginning of my career. And I know that I'm not the only one. I've spoken to a number of people who are, are blind or low vision, who have done the same thing, or are doing it now. Did you ever consider a career, or have you ever had a career outside of blindness related stuff, and, uh, how did you feel about that?

Jonathan: Oh absolutely. I began my career in commercial radio. And I worked very hard to get that career, because when I started inquiring of people in the radio industry, I was constantly being told by radio professionals that a blind person couldn't work in radio. And this predates the internet. So it was much more difficult for me to just reach out, and find out how blind people overseas were doing radio. But I was really confident that I could, and I would practice my braille every night, reading out loud, to try and be fluent enough to read on the air, which was a skill that stood me in really good stead later. But then, when I kept being told that I couldn't work in radio, I thought, "Well I'll prove them wrong," so, in those days, if you wanted to, you could apply, with a lot of bureaucracy, for a temporary license to run a short term radio station. And I did this. It was incredibly labor intensive, applying for this license, and I finally got the license. I remember coming home from school and there was the license waiting in the mailbox, it was one of the most exciting days of my life, and then I raised all the money. Commercially. I went out there and raised all the revenue necessary to hire the equipment, we put a big A.M. mast at the back at the School for the Blind, and we ran this radio station for a couple of weeks, in two consecutive years. And when we got that radio station set up, I reached out to all the radio professionals I could think of. I wrote to them, I called them, and I said, "Hey, come out and see blind people doing radio." And they did. It was a curiosity. So, when it came time for me to work full time in commercial radio, it was easy getting in because I had my network. I knew everybody, and they knew me, and I was just able to walk into the radio industry.

MOe: You kind of touched a little bit on our next question, and that's, is there anyone in particular that helped you, uh, succeed in, in the field that you've gone into?

Jonathan: There's certainly adult blind mentors who have assisted me along the way, and that's something I've always tried to pay back as well, when there are younger people coming through who have questions about working in the fields where I have some expertise. And it's one of the reasons why I loved so much being a chief executive of an employment agency and talking to people with a wide range of disabilities, because I think mentoring is so important. The National Federation of the Blind helped me a huge amount. Because I was quite a sensitive teenager. And I worked out by myself that the problem I was having was not my blindness. The problem I was having was other people's perceptions of it. I was constantly being held back by other people thinking that because I was blind, I couldn't do these things that I wanted to do. Like working in radio, also getting into politics, which I also did. I stood for Parliament a couple of times, here in New Zealand, and I was the first congenitally blind person to run for Parliament here. So, I was at a pretty low ebb. I mean a really low ebb. I was, um, I was suicidal as a teenager. And it was a pretty low place to be. And uh, I got online, on a thing called the CompuServe Information Service, and I discovered the National Federation of the Blind, and their philosophy of blindness, I guess I should say now "our philosophy of blindness," now that I work with NFB, and it turned my life around. Just knowing that there were other blind people who felt the same way about blindness that I did. That, you know, it could be a bit of a nuisance, it could be an encumbrance sometimes, but the biggest problem was making sure you had training and opportunity, and that you could affect attitudinal change. So, the NFB played a huge role in my life, even on the other side of the world.

Chris: Well, you talked a little bit about this too already, but, um, I want to ask you to expand on it. So what were some of the challenges that you had to overcome to build yourself up personally and professionally, and can you tie that back to the idea of being suicidal, that, uh, is another thing that's not unique to you, um, and unfortunately is, is, very prevalent in our community. And uh, do you have any advice for people that are feeling that way now?

Jonathan: Ah. You know, it's, it's a really horrible place to be. And I don't, I don't think anybody who, um, hasn't been there can truly understand the feeling of utter despondency, uh, and the one thing I would say is that, there is, that there is an answer. And I would encourage anybody who is feeling that way to reach out, to, to seek professional help, but also to network with other blind people who might be able to give you the mentoring and the inspiration. It is a pretty tough old world out there. And, and I guess I've passed that stage, and I still sympathize with people who are at that stage, but I now find advocacy really rewarding, and I realize that it's a long game, and sometimes advocacy's going to feel like you're banging your head against a brick wall, but every so often, the wall moves just a little bit. So, there is hope, and it can get better, and that's why I do believe, very strongly, in the work that the NFB does. Because it has turned many lives around, including mine.

MOe: Going on that theme of challenges, did you have any financial challenges, when you were especially doing your business, and ...

(Jonathan laughs.)

Jonathan: You know, the first financial challenge I can think of is actually in the context of discovering the National Federation of the Blind on CompuServe. Because accessing CompuServe over a dial-up modem from New Zealand was really expensive. (Chuckle.) And as well as finding NFB stuff, there was also a thing called "The Executive News Service." And uh, that was the first time that I was able to read any content from a, a newspaper independently. And that was in the 1980's. And because I'm such a news junky, and a political person, I just went crazy with this thing. (Laugh.) And got a massive, massive bill when I was just a student, and, um, that put me into some pretty serious debt for a while until I got that under control. Yeah, I mean I have had periods where things got really tough. About a decade ago, I was in a position that was  disestablished in its form. And I decided I would start my own business. I started my own consultancy company. And it's, it's a big leap of faith to do that. I was very fortunate that I was a well-known name in the blindness industry, and that people were willing to hire me, but it takes a while to spin it up. And um, in my previous role, I was leasing a laptop, which is actually quite a sound business decision, until the money dries up. And there clearly was going to be a little bit of turbulence between when I exited that role, and when my consultancy business was spinning up. And I literally faced the prospect of not having enough money to pay the monthly bill for my computer. And of course, if my computer disappeared, I wouldn't be able to do anything. I wouldn't have been able to do the, the Mushroom FM thing, I wouldn't have been able to build up my consultancy business, so it was a bit disastrous. And I was, (chuckle.) Very fortunate that the blindness agency here in New Zealand, um, helped me out. And they purchased a computer for me, and I'm forever grateful for that, and I've made donations subsequently to thank them, because Mosen Consultant became a thriving business with a whole bunch of streams. Like E-books, and government relation consultancy, and app accessibility consultancy, and we did really well, but I just needed that leg up to start with.

Chris: Could you talk a little bit about what it's been like to be a founder of the blindness internet radio station and podcast industry? Is that even a thing?

Jonathan: I think it's a thing. One of the things that I've always enjoyed doing is looking at emerging technology, and thinking about its application, specifically to the blind community. Because for me, the blind community's kind of my tribe. It's, it's my culture. Uh, I'm, I'm deeply imbedded in it, and I'm not ashamed about that. I'm proud to be blind, and I'm proud to be a part of this community. And I guess the first time that started in a internet radio context would have been about 1995 or 96 when real audio technology came along, and I started a website called The Arena. But the big breakthrough came when Shoutcast was released. I was supposed to be working on my master’s thesis, which my employer was putting me through, uh, but, I found out about Shoutcast on New Year's Eve I believe it was, 1998, and I had a Shoutcast stream set up within, I don't know, maybe half an hour or so, and I was broadcasting. And I immediately realized that the barriers to entry for live streaming had just been dramatically reduced, and I had this vision right away in my mind of, "What if we could get a server, get the bandwidth, and have an internet radio station that was run just by blind people?" So, I had this idea within, you know, hours of the Shoutcast technology being released. And it went through various permutations, I did some things on my own, but the big breakthrough, of course, was when ACB Radio started in December 1999, and they approached me and asked me if I would set this radio station up for them. And it was just such an exciting time, because no one had ever done anything like that before. And we were writing the rule book and working out how to work with all these volunteers all across the world, long before technologies like Skype and Zoom and those sorts of things were around, so, it was fun being a trail blazer.

Chris: And there are, I don't know if, if it's hundreds, but there are at least tens of internet radio stations that are founded and run by blind people, some large, some small, that have grown out of that. Um, not to mention podcasts, which came along somewhat later, but there was a similar story there, wasn't there?

Jonathan: Yeah, we've just approached the twentieth anniversary of that, right now in October as we record this anyway, October of um, 2004 was when I put the first podcast out that I did. And in those days, it was really new technology. The term "podcast" had only just come into vogue. You had to write the RSS feeds by hand, there weren't any podcast distributors at that stage. I think the first was Lybson, and I don't think Lybson was quite there yet. So, it was really embryonic technology, that no one had heard of, but I thought "Wow, this is great you know. I mean if we can have this technology and, and people can take it with them, essentially, then this is something blind people are gonna dig." And so yes, it was like the whole internet radio thing all over again that took off, and I'm delighted by that. I don't see it as competition or anything like that. Um, if you can start a trend like that, and people jump on the band wagon, then that's absolutely fantastic. You know, and I celebrate the fact that we've now got this community of blind content providers doing this stuff. Because before MBS FM came along, which was my first internet radio station that I ran, we didn't have any kind of global media that catered specifically to blind people. The call-in show that I started in June of 1999 called Blind Line, was the first ever global call-in show, specifically for blind people. And these days, there are lots of ways you can share your views as a blind person, and, and your experiences, but that was a world first. And it's really cool to be able to say that.


Chris: So how do you feel about the, uh, state of things today, in the blindness field, the blindness world, ... I'm just gonna give you sort of cart blanche to go all over the place with this. And what other advice would you have to share, uh, with other blind people, that maybe you haven't thought of sharing already, or what advice would you give to yourself in the past? To your past self, if, if you had it to do all over again?

Jonathan: Well, I'll take the last part first. If I was advising my younger self, it would be not to take the haters to heart so much. Um, I think one of the down sides of being a big fish in a small pond is that you do get haters who are gonna hate. And when I was younger, that meant a lot more than it does now. These days, if there are trolls, I just choose not to engage. I'm very happy to have respectful discussions that have differences of opinion, and I actually celebrate that. I think debate is healthy, and that's one of the things I'm really proud of, with respect to "Living Blindfully." In an era where the public discourse has become so poisoned, we managed to have a podcast where people could disagree, about some quite contentious things, without being disagreeable. I wish we could have more of that. But as a, a, younger person, I wish I hadn't taken it all to heart as much as I did. Um, in terms of how I'm feeling about things, I'm feeling quite optimistic. Especially in the context of the work that I'm now doing with the NFB. NFB have realized that there is a significant change that has taken place. And that is that, you know, we've won some key battles in the sense that all (the major tech players understand the need for good quality accessibility tools. That didn't happen by magic. That happened because of staunch, effective advocacy, and those gains are potentially easily lost. So we've got to make sure that they're not lost, and there's also some danger in this. You know, if you have a problem with Jaws, or NVDA, um, your Sense player, whatever. Any of those devices, you know who the key people are. It doesn't take too much investigation to know who to talk to, and they're most likely to be willing to talk to you, and if there's a serious issue, the, they will engage with the blind community, because the blind community is their key market. But when you're dealing with a very large, big tech player, with hundreds of millions, or, you know, billions of customers, we are just this tiny little blip. We are a tiny crinkle on the potato chip of their business. (Laugh.) And uh, we have to make sure that we matter. And what we're seeing is that there are some defects that creep into these products, that if they'd crept into a product and impacted sighted people the way that they impact us, they would never have been shipped. So I've been pushing this concept called "the Defect Equity Framework," which is to say, "Okay, let's think about how this is affecting a blind person. What would be the equivalent thing?" So for example, we had a, we've had situations in the past where VoiceOver might have stopped speaking in a particular situation, and your phone goes completely silent. So under the concept of a defect equity framework, that would be like a sighted person's screen going completely blank. Flickering, and dying. Now, if many millions of iPhone users, sighted, uh, sighted people were using had their screens flickering and dying, then it would be an emergency. It would be an immediate fix. So, my message is, we are worthy. It should be an immediate fix for us as well. The fact that we are a small part of the market doesn't make a difference, because the impact is just as consequential, and our money is as good as anyone else's. So that's the kind of work that I'm doing with NFB, in part anyway. I'm working on some pretty exciting media initiatives, but with the big tech players, we need to form these strong relationships, have proactive positive discussions where we can, and hopefully trouble shoot these things before they go out and affect a lot of blind people. So, there's a, there's a lot going on, obviously the AI space is absolutely fascinating, and, uh, you know, the, the, the blindness media space is pretty fascinating too. I, I hope that people who are doing blindness media will continue to be critical in a constructive way. Um, not to take the hype of some of these companies at face value, I mean some of the things that are happening are really exciting, but it's also important if you're in a position of privilege and you're running a podcast or some sort of media that blind people are listening to, to ask the tough questions. But I'm feeling very optimistic. I'm an optimistic person.

MOe: So Jonathan, since you have taken a new job at NFB, could you take a minute to tell us about your new adventure?

Jonathan: Yeah, I'm happy to do that. I'm working on a number of initiatives at the NFB. Some of them are new media initiatives and we'll be talking about those at greater length a little bit later, but obviously I think the NFB has a lot positive to say. It's made an enormous positive contribution not just in the lives of blind Americans, but because so much of this technology is developed in America, and, uh, so much thought comes from the states that then trickles down to the other markets, the NFB has a global influence. And some of the things that I'm working on, um, acknowledge that. Also, I'm working as I mentioned with the big technology companies. To build those relationships, to gain some rapport with them, because what we ideally want is not to have to be reacting to things. Reacting to things that we don't think are particularly good, or that have broken, it's far better to be proactive. To build those relationships on the basis of trust and partnership, and hopefully work in a spirit of co-design. So that we can be involved at the ground floor when these products are being put together. I want people to feel like the NFB is on their side when things aren't going so well. So if there's some software that has regressed, or some sort of issue that you're concerned about, you know, the NFB does have networks. We do have contacts. And I want to be able to, uh, progress those issues on behalf of the blind community. So, I'm also going to be taking some responsibility for the International Braille and Technology Center, which is an amazing resource at the Jernigan Institute in Baltimore, where there is a lot of equipment on display, plugged in, ready to go, so, not only can you visit the Jernigan Institute, and see the International Braille and Technology Center, you can usually use this equipment, uh, and you can also call, and ask questions. Product comparison questions. Because I think this is an area where there's a gap, uh, at the moment, that people don't realize that the NFB can help with questions about, "Okay. I'm looking to work with this particular field. What product is best for my use case?" And it's hard to get that impartial advice, 'cause if you go to a vender, the vender's obviously going to promote what they have to sell. And similarly, if you go to a particular technology company. So we can play that kind of honest broker, the Consumer Reports if you will, of the blind community, and we're gonna strengthen that offering as well.

MOe: Well, unfortunately, we are running short on time. Why don't you share with us how we can get in contact with you? Especially if we do have some comments on those things, you just mentioned?

Jonathan: Best way is to drop me an email, and I do have a new E-mail address. It's J Mosen, J M O S E N, at NFB dot org, and I'll be delighted to chat to anybody.

Chris: Well Jonathan, thank you for being here. It's been a real honor, and I am very excited to see, uh, what you're able to accomplish partnering with the NFB. That's really exciting.

Jonathan: Thank you both. It's been a pleasure to be here.

Chris: Before we go, I'd like to thank our sponsors and valued partners, Wells Fargo, Thrivent, World Services for the Blind, the APH Connect Center at the American Printing House for the Blind, and Computers for the Blind. We really appreciate all of them. And, if you would like to become a sponsor of Penny Forward, and help us continue producing this great podcast, and other blindness related media, visit our website at
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The Penny Forward podcast is produced by Chris Peterson and Liz Bottner, with help from MOe Carpenter. Audio editing and postproduction is provided by Brynn Lee, text transcription is provided by Anne Verduin, and the music is composed and performed by Andre Louis. All of those people are blind, and they showcase just some of the many talents and capabilities the blind community has to offer. Penny Forward is a nonprofit organization founded and led by blind people, who help each other navigate the complicated landscape of personal finance. We do that by offering self-paced, online education courses, weekly and monthly group workshops, and one on one financial counseling. You can learn much more about what we have to offer and how to become a Penny Forward member by visiting our website at
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We encourage you while there to think about making a donation, or becoming a Penny Forward member, for just $9.99 a month, or ninety-nine dollars a year. Now, for all of us in the Penny Forward community, I'm Chris Peterson.

MOe: I'm MOe Carpenter.

Chris: And, for us, and Liz Bottner, have a great week, and thank you for listening.